You speak like if you should be able to understand "god". Have you ever think that maybe you just can't understand this concept completely? Maybe god is not be as logical as 2+2=4. You would like him to follow logic, because you could understand him more easily.. But it's not because you would like it that it's a fact.
If god is human-like, if he thinks, feels, love and hate (and this is just a supposition), maybe he has his reasons to create things he create, and maybe you can't understand those divine reasons with your human brain.
I'm not saying you should stop asking those questions though!
If god is human-like, if he thinks, feels, love and hate (and this is just a supposition), maybe he has his reasons to create things he create, and maybe you can't understand those divine reasons with your human brain.
I'm not saying you should stop asking those questions though!
hold on if you were god and you were everything how would you know what you were unless you created something.
put it this way if you were the only thing in existence then you wouldn't know what you were what you looked like you would have to create and in doing so see in your creation what it was that you were. If you like, your creation is a reflection of what you are.
I know confusing but think about it for a minute or two.
put it this way if you were the only thing in existence then you wouldn't know what you were what you looked like you would have to create and in doing so see in your creation what it was that you were. If you like, your creation is a reflection of what you are.
I know confusing but think about it for a minute or two.
hold on if you were god and you were everything how would you know what you were unless you created something.
put it this way if you were the only thing in existence then you wouldn't know what you were what you looked like you would have to create and in doing so see in your creation what it was that you were. If you like, your creation is a reflection of what you are.
I know confusing but think about it for a minute or two.
put it this way if you were the only thing in existence then you wouldn't know what you were what you looked like you would have to create and in doing so see in your creation what it was that you were. If you like, your creation is a reflection of what you are.
I know confusing but think about it for a minute or two.
I understand what you say, but as well you could ask: if I were the only one in existence then how and why would I know about anything to create?
You speak like if you should be able to understand "god". Have you ever think that maybe you just can't understand this concept completely? Maybe god is not be as logical as 2+2=4. You would like him to follow logic, because you could understand him more easily.. But it's not because you would like it that it's a fact.
If god is human-like, if he thinks, feels, love and hate (and this is just a supposition), maybe he has his reasons to create things he create, and maybe you can't understand those divine reasons with your human brain.
I'm not saying you should stop asking those questions though!
If god is human-like, if he thinks, feels, love and hate (and this is just a supposition), maybe he has his reasons to create things he create, and maybe you can't understand those divine reasons with your human brain.
I'm not saying you should stop asking those questions though!
God created human after his own image. So imagining myself as a god to find out something about God is not so far from reality (if this is reality).
Maybe there are questions which can not be answered by a human. But we can't just decide which question can be answered and which not without any proof. We have to be able to give the exact answer, or we have to be able to say "we can't give an answer because of this and that".
Maybe god is not logical but then how is he working? Maybe it's just me who would like him to be logical because then I'd understand him, but if he isn't logical then why is his creation full of logical laws? Or is it maybe that God is not logical and he is not the creator?
Maybe I don't have to be able to understand the concept of God. But maybe I don't have to be able to write a program. Should I accept that I shouldn't write a program just because I am not able to do it yet? Or should I learn to become able to program? Should I accept that I may not understand god? Or should I learn to become able to understand his concept? Just because this is not a subject of science it still can be something what we can understand.
Do you know any other way to find the purpose of existence but to understand God?
God created human after his own image. So imagining myself as a god to find out something about God is not so far from reality (if this is reality).
Maybe there are questions which can not be answered by a human. But we can't just decide which question can be answered and which not without any proof. We have to be able to give the exact answer, or we have to be able to say "we can't give an answer because of this and that".
Maybe god is not logical but then how is he working? Maybe it's just me who would like him to be logical because then I'd understand him, but if he isn't logical then why is his creation full of logical laws? Or is it maybe that God is not logical and he is not the creator?
Maybe I don't have to be able to understand the concept of God. But maybe I don't have to be able to write a program. Should I accept that I shouldn't write a program just because I am not able to do it yet? Or should I learn to become able to program? Should I accept that I may not understand god? Or should I learn to become able to understand his concept? Just because this is not a subject of science it still can be something what we can understand.
Do you know any other way to find the purpose of existence but to understand God?
Maybe there are questions which can not be answered by a human. But we can't just decide which question can be answered and which not without any proof. We have to be able to give the exact answer, or we have to be able to say "we can't give an answer because of this and that".
Maybe god is not logical but then how is he working? Maybe it's just me who would like him to be logical because then I'd understand him, but if he isn't logical then why is his creation full of logical laws? Or is it maybe that God is not logical and he is not the creator?
Maybe I don't have to be able to understand the concept of God. But maybe I don't have to be able to write a program. Should I accept that I shouldn't write a program just because I am not able to do it yet? Or should I learn to become able to program? Should I accept that I may not understand god? Or should I learn to become able to understand his concept? Just because this is not a subject of science it still can be something what we can understand.
Do you know any other way to find the purpose of existence but to understand God?
> God created human after his own image.
This is the first thing you write on this site that I REALLY disagree with. Except if you have some high knowlegde that I don't have myself (and maybe it's the case, I can't know), you can't say things like that. How do you know "God created human after his own image"? Because it's written in some books?? Because some people say it?? Come on. You can't know that for sure, it's just a speculation.
> Do you know any other way to find the purpose of existence but to understand God?
I'd say "faith" is a valid answer.
> God created human after his own image.
This is the first thing you write on this site that I REALLY disagree with. Except if you have some high knowlegde that I don't have myself (and maybe it's the case, I can't know), you can't say things like that. How do you know "God created human after his own image"? Because it's written in some books?? Because some people say it?? Come on. You can't know that for sure, it's just a speculation.
> Do you know any other way to find the purpose of existence but to understand God?
I'd say "faith" is a valid answer.
This is the first thing you write on this site that I REALLY disagree with. Except if you have some high knowlegde that I don't have myself (and maybe it's the case, I can't know), you can't say things like that. How do you know "God created human after his own image"? Because it's written in some books?? Because some people say it?? Come on. You can't know that for sure, it's just a speculation.
> Do you know any other way to find the purpose of existence but to understand God?
I'd say "faith" is a valid answer.
"God created human after his own image." This is a religious preconception. But the other, "God is the creator of the world" or even that "God exists", these too are religious preconceptions without any explanation or proof for them. What I'm trying to discuss in this issue is the basics of this concept and I'd try to explain further existence-questions from that.
Anyway, according to my formerly mentioned theories, it seems to me that the power what we call God and the source of our lifeforce are the same thing; even more the consciousness of God and the consciousness of our soul (if there is any) are the same thing. This can be accepted as God created us in his own image. The question is that was God really the creator of us, or was there another way in which God and we were created?
The answer to this can show if we have some divine purpose to fulfill in our life or not. If the creation was "accidental" and not meaningful then God might be more powerful than us but he might have no ultimate rules given to our lives. But if he was the creator then he surely had something in mind why he created us - or anything. But I can't find anything what would make God a creator.
Pathfinder
You are to busy writing and not reading and understanding what people have written to you.
If you know the answer please tell us. If your here just to argue please tell us.
If your here to learn don't answer a thread 5 minute after it's posted think about it first. I think you think you are here just to tell everyone else they are wrong that's ok as most of us I can tell Know that we really Know nothing at all.
But please If you are sooo smart tell us the answer and stop pretending that you don't know.
The only way you know who you are is from what you are told you are by other people eg: your fat, your skinny, your funny, your what ever these things people say to you give you a sense of who you are a reflection if you like or an (<i>image in your likeness<i>). Also the things you create give you a feel for what you are the are a reflection into you soul your thoughts your feelings
plese don't reply straght away think about this now.
without these things you would not no if you were short, fat, tall, funny etc etc etc If you were kept in a room and had no contact with anything else how would you ever come to the knowing of what you were.
Now if that room you were in was you and you were everything all there was eg: you were god how would you know what you truly were an until you created something something that would reflect back who you were your image if you like.
This is the only reason I can think of for the creation of all that is by a supreme being do you have a better idea. if you do please tell me.
Tim
http://whale-info.com />
You are to busy writing and not reading and understanding what people have written to you.
If you know the answer please tell us. If your here just to argue please tell us.
If your here to learn don't answer a thread 5 minute after it's posted think about it first. I think you think you are here just to tell everyone else they are wrong that's ok as most of us I can tell Know that we really Know nothing at all.
But please If you are sooo smart tell us the answer and stop pretending that you don't know.
The only way you know who you are is from what you are told you are by other people eg: your fat, your skinny, your funny, your what ever these things people say to you give you a sense of who you are a reflection if you like or an (<i>image in your likeness<i>). Also the things you create give you a feel for what you are the are a reflection into you soul your thoughts your feelings
plese don't reply straght away think about this now.
without these things you would not no if you were short, fat, tall, funny etc etc etc If you were kept in a room and had no contact with anything else how would you ever come to the knowing of what you were.
Now if that room you were in was you and you were everything all there was eg: you were god how would you know what you truly were an until you created something something that would reflect back who you were your image if you like.
This is the only reason I can think of for the creation of all that is by a supreme being do you have a better idea. if you do please tell me.
Tim
http://whale-info.com
Pathfinder
You are to busy writing and not reading and understanding what people have written to you.
If you know the answer please tell us. If your here just to argue please tell us.
If your here to learn don't answer a thread 5 minute after it's posted think about it first. I think you think you are here just to tell everyone else they are wrong that's ok as most of us I can tell Know that we really Know nothing at all.
But please If you are sooo smart tell us the answer and stop pretending that you don't know.
The only way you know who you are is from what you are told you are by other people eg: your fat, your skinny, your funny, your what ever these things people say to you give you a sense of who you are a reflection if you like or an (<i>image in your likeness<i>). Also the things you create give you a feel for what you are the are a reflection into you soul your thoughts your feelings
plese don't reply straght away think about this now.
without these things you would not no if you were short, fat, tall, funny etc etc etc If you were kept in a room and had no contact with anything else how would you ever come to the knowing of what you were.
Now if that room you were in was you and you were everything all there was eg: you were god how would you know what you truly were an until you created something something that would reflect back who you were your image if you like.
This is the only reason I can think of for the creation of all that is by a supreme being do you have a better idea. if you do please tell me.
Tim
http://whale-info.com />
You are to busy writing and not reading and understanding what people have written to you.
If you know the answer please tell us. If your here just to argue please tell us.
If your here to learn don't answer a thread 5 minute after it's posted think about it first. I think you think you are here just to tell everyone else they are wrong that's ok as most of us I can tell Know that we really Know nothing at all.
But please If you are sooo smart tell us the answer and stop pretending that you don't know.
The only way you know who you are is from what you are told you are by other people eg: your fat, your skinny, your funny, your what ever these things people say to you give you a sense of who you are a reflection if you like or an (<i>image in your likeness<i>). Also the things you create give you a feel for what you are the are a reflection into you soul your thoughts your feelings
plese don't reply straght away think about this now.
without these things you would not no if you were short, fat, tall, funny etc etc etc If you were kept in a room and had no contact with anything else how would you ever come to the knowing of what you were.
Now if that room you were in was you and you were everything all there was eg: you were god how would you know what you truly were an until you created something something that would reflect back who you were your image if you like.
This is the only reason I can think of for the creation of all that is by a supreme being do you have a better idea. if you do please tell me.
Tim
http://whale-info.com
I believe you were trying to tell that if there's nothing but God then God became a creator to find out what he is like. But what you didn't think about is that if there is nothing but God then why does God create anything? Ultimate perfection is a clear statement, it means perfection in every possible way; and perfection means the best possible state. So if God is perfect then he knows very well what he is like. He knows that he is perfect and he doesn't need billions of imperfect things to tell this.
You are right that I have to compare myself to others to be able to tell my parameters. But if I don't see a computer in my whole life and I don't feel the necessity of a computer in my whole life then why would I find out a computer? Or, If I don't see anyone else in my whole life then why would I think about being able to tell if I am fat or thin? The same goes to God: if he doesn't miss anything because he is always satisfied (because he is perfect) and he didn't create anything before then why whould he want to start creating?
Very interesting discussion. I am awakening to our possible purpose in life but I am still learning. I would like to point out that God may not be some almost physical being that used his hands and created things but maybe the creator is only the source by which everything started. That source has given use everything we needed and wanted. The problem is that we have no sense of this source. We have trouble even picturing or because our perception of reality is only perception.
After reading some books and checking out some websites. Many people beleive that we are connected to the source or creator and this one belief says that we must be more like the creator to since it. The creator is the ultimate giver. We as humans are the ultimate recievers. So I guess we have to desire for others in order to get closer to the creator or the source. we have to be like the source. I have to be the source.
After reading some books and checking out some websites. Many people beleive that we are connected to the source or creator and this one belief says that we must be more like the creator to since it. The creator is the ultimate giver. We as humans are the ultimate recievers. So I guess we have to desire for others in order to get closer to the creator or the source. we have to be like the source. I have to be the source.
So with regard to your theory, did God create everything; let's turn it around, if it wasn't Him, then who could create everything? This lead to another question, who can create life? Who has the power to do? Humans are seen to be crown of creation - an none of us has the means to do it. Not even science - they have tried and failed miserably. Another thing; we are created in the image of God, meaning - not literally, but spiritually. He has "powered" the physical body with a spiritual body. In fact He lives within us. Each being is perfect, in its own. God did not create a "not perfect" world, He actually did create a perfect world. And yes, we do not know what cause the creation of the universe as it is, but then should we know? Do we require to know? And if we do, will that solve the challenge - why are we on earth? I don't think so.
So with regard to your theory, did God create everything; let's turn it around, if it wasn't Him, then who could create everything? This lead to another question, who can create life? Who has the power to do? Humans are seen to be crown of creation - an none of us has the means to do it. Not even science - they have tried and failed miserably. Another thing; we are created in the image of God, meaning - not literally, but spiritually. He has "powered" the physical body with a spiritual body. In fact He lives within us. Each being is perfect, in its own. God did not create a "not perfect" world, He actually did create a perfect world. And yes, we do not know what cause the creation of the universe as it is, but then should we know? Do we require to know? And if we do, will that solve the challenge - why are we on earth? I don't think so.
I like your comments.
But! :)
If the knowledge of the reason of creation doesn't show us why we are on Earth then nothing does. So, yes, I believe that this knowledge makes me go forward.
Do we require to know? - As humanity, maybe we don't. But I, personally, have a strong desire to know, I'd feel more secure if I'd know it. I know, I see people living way happier life than I do and they have no idea whatsoever to this question. So I'm not saying that the knowledge of the ultimate reason of existence is necessary to fulfill the meaning of life. It's just me who wants to know it because as I studied myself and the people around me I found that an ultimate knowledge is necessary for me, because this could give a strong basis for my thoughts, my feelings, my decissions and my whole life.
I see people who really do everything for success and then they die at the age of 40-50 because of serious health problems; or their family falls apart; or they still don't find anything satisfying. I see 'spiritual' people who have passed 30 or 40 and they spent their entire life with trying to be good disciples, good believers, good followers, good whatevers and they are not happy, they are sick and broke, but still they don't give up. Why not? And then I see broken men and women on the streets who are suffering for lack and poverty, they fight with each other for the last piece of bread, or mostly for alcohol and cigarette because they are addicted. And why do they continue? Why don't they just give up and get out of life? I mean, if someone is living like this for 20-30 years and has no perspective to get out then what the hell is keeping him wanting to be alive?
There are different levels of truth. Everyone has to find the level which makes him/her satisfied. Even as a child, I wasn't satisfied with whatever my parents and teachers taught me about the way of life. Somehow I felt that there is something way bigger what is NOT what the Bible says. And now I'm starting to see that things are just not what they seemed to be.
You ask, who created the world if not God? This isn't what I wanted to ask. I meant that maybe the universe has some kind of basic, yet undiscovered law which could be like "nothingness creates energy and energy creates consciousness". And if this is the case then maybe there is still a God, but maybe this God is just something what was still a created entity and creation is simply a natural process without a purpose. And if it is so, then maybe God has very strong power to disturb or shift our lives but he is not the ultimate answer to all questions.
So, what we know is that there is a principle about energy which is the same principle as of God. We can say that energy itself contains life and consciousness, and this is where life is from and this is where the holly spirit, the soul, or our consciousness (higher self, whatever) is from. This might be true because we don't really know what life is and how it works, so maybe life is in energy...
If God is not the creator, just the first existing being, and his existence is still a cause and not an effect, then maybe there is no reason of existence. Maybe this is just by law and there is no higher meaning, purpose or whatsoever at all, it's just the behavior of nature, which might be accidental as well. We know that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. This could be enough time for accidents to raise into an organized universe filled with life and matter, but mostly still left empty...
But if God created this whole thing then he must have had something "in mind" what was the reason of the creation. Why did God create? He sure had a reason for it because as you can see (if you accept the existence of God) God never does anything meaningless. So for him, creation has a meaning, it has to lead to something. Why would God create something what leads to something if he already knows where all the things will lead? Why would he?
Maybe the world is perfect, you're right. It might be perfect, it might be that I simply know too few to understand the ultimate meaning of perfection, and because of this, I believe that the world is imperfect, although it's not. This is also a possibility. But even if the world is perfect, why would God need it? Why would he want it to be?
I like your comments.
But! :)
If the knowledge of the reason of creation doesn't show us why we are on Earth then nothing does. So, yes, I believe that this knowledge makes me go forward.
Do we require to know? - As humanity, maybe we don't. But I, personally, have a strong desire to know, I'd feel more secure if I'd know it. I know, I see people living way happier life than I do and they have no idea whatsoever to this question. So I'm not saying that the knowledge of the ultimate reason of existence is necessary to fulfill the meaning of life. It's just me who wants to know it because as I studied myself and the people around me I found that an ultimate knowledge is necessary for me, because this could give a strong basis for my thoughts, my feelings, my decissions and my whole life.
I see people who really do everything for success and then they die at the age of 40-50 because of serious health problems; or their family falls apart; or they still don't find anything satisfying. I see 'spiritual' people who have passed 30 or 40 and they spent their entire life with trying to be good disciples, good believers, good followers, good whatevers and they are not happy, they are sick and broke, but still they don't give up. Why not? And then I see broken men and women on the streets who are suffering for lack and poverty, they fight with each other for the last piece of bread, or mostly for alcohol and cigarette because they are addicted. And why do they continue? Why don't they just give up and get out of life? I mean, if someone is living like this for 20-30 years and has no perspective to get out then what the hell is keeping him wanting to be alive?
There are different levels of truth. Everyone has to find the level which makes him/her satisfied. Even as a child, I wasn't satisfied with whatever my parents and teachers taught me about the way of life. Somehow I felt that there is something way bigger what is NOT what the Bible says. And now I'm starting to see that things are just not what they seemed to be.
You ask, who created the world if not God? This isn't what I wanted to ask. I meant that maybe the universe has some kind of basic, yet undiscovered law which could be like "nothingness creates energy and energy creates consciousness". And if this is the case then maybe there is still a God, but maybe this God is just something what was still a created entity and creation is simply a natural process without a purpose. And if it is so, then maybe God has very strong power to disturb or shift our lives but he is not the ultimate answer to all questions.
So, what we know is that there is a principle about energy which is the same principle as of God. We can say that energy itself contains life and consciousness, and this is where life is from and this is where the holly spirit, the soul, or our consciousness (higher self, whatever) is from. This might be true because we don't really know what life is and how it works, so maybe life is in energy...
If God is not the creator, just the first existing being, and his existence is still a cause and not an effect, then maybe there is no reason of existence. Maybe this is just by law and there is no higher meaning, purpose or whatsoever at all, it's just the behavior of nature, which might be accidental as well. We know that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. This could be enough time for accidents to raise into an organized universe filled with life and matter, but mostly still left empty...
But if God created this whole thing then he must have had something "in mind" what was the reason of the creation. Why did God create? He sure had a reason for it because as you can see (if you accept the existence of God) God never does anything meaningless. So for him, creation has a meaning, it has to lead to something. Why would God create something what leads to something if he already knows where all the things will lead? Why would he?
Maybe the world is perfect, you're right. It might be perfect, it might be that I simply know too few to understand the ultimate meaning of perfection, and because of this, I believe that the world is imperfect, although it's not. This is also a possibility. But even if the world is perfect, why would God need it? Why would he want it to be?
But! :)
If the knowledge of the reason of creation doesn't show us why we are on Earth then nothing does. So, yes, I believe that this knowledge makes me go forward.
Do we require to know? - As humanity, maybe we don't. But I, personally, have a strong desire to know, I'd feel more secure if I'd know it. I know, I see people living way happier life than I do and they have no idea whatsoever to this question. So I'm not saying that the knowledge of the ultimate reason of existence is necessary to fulfill the meaning of life. It's just me who wants to know it because as I studied myself and the people around me I found that an ultimate knowledge is necessary for me, because this could give a strong basis for my thoughts, my feelings, my decissions and my whole life.
I see people who really do everything for success and then they die at the age of 40-50 because of serious health problems; or their family falls apart; or they still don't find anything satisfying. I see 'spiritual' people who have passed 30 or 40 and they spent their entire life with trying to be good disciples, good believers, good followers, good whatevers and they are not happy, they are sick and broke, but still they don't give up. Why not? And then I see broken men and women on the streets who are suffering for lack and poverty, they fight with each other for the last piece of bread, or mostly for alcohol and cigarette because they are addicted. And why do they continue? Why don't they just give up and get out of life? I mean, if someone is living like this for 20-30 years and has no perspective to get out then what the hell is keeping him wanting to be alive?
There are different levels of truth. Everyone has to find the level which makes him/her satisfied. Even as a child, I wasn't satisfied with whatever my parents and teachers taught me about the way of life. Somehow I felt that there is something way bigger what is NOT what the Bible says. And now I'm starting to see that things are just not what they seemed to be.
You ask, who created the world if not God? This isn't what I wanted to ask. I meant that maybe the universe has some kind of basic, yet undiscovered law which could be like "nothingness creates energy and energy creates consciousness". And if this is the case then maybe there is still a God, but maybe this God is just something what was still a created entity and creation is simply a natural process without a purpose. And if it is so, then maybe God has very strong power to disturb or shift our lives but he is not the ultimate answer to all questions.
So, what we know is that there is a principle about energy which is the same principle as of God. We can say that energy itself contains life and consciousness, and this is where life is from and this is where the holly spirit, the soul, or our consciousness (higher self, whatever) is from. This might be true because we don't really know what life is and how it works, so maybe life is in energy...
If God is not the creator, just the first existing being, and his existence is still a cause and not an effect, then maybe there is no reason of existence. Maybe this is just by law and there is no higher meaning, purpose or whatsoever at all, it's just the behavior of nature, which might be accidental as well. We know that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. This could be enough time for accidents to raise into an organized universe filled with life and matter, but mostly still left empty...
But if God created this whole thing then he must have had something "in mind" what was the reason of the creation. Why did God create? He sure had a reason for it because as you can see (if you accept the existence of God) God never does anything meaningless. So for him, creation has a meaning, it has to lead to something. Why would God create something what leads to something if he already knows where all the things will lead? Why would he?
Maybe the world is perfect, you're right. It might be perfect, it might be that I simply know too few to understand the ultimate meaning of perfection, and because of this, I believe that the world is imperfect, although it's not. This is also a possibility. But even if the world is perfect, why would God need it? Why would he want it to be?
> God never does anything meaningless.
How do you know that?
Again: god is not necessarily as you think he is. In fact, god is probably FAR from what we can even start to imagine with our limited human brain. Thinking otherwise is the start of religions and wars, in my opinion.
> God never does anything meaningless.
How do you know that?
Again: god is not necessarily as you think he is. In fact, god is probably FAR from what we can even start to imagine with our limited human brain. Thinking otherwise is the start of religions and wars, in my opinion.
How do you know that?
Again: god is not necessarily as you think he is. In fact, god is probably FAR from what we can even start to imagine with our limited human brain. Thinking otherwise is the start of religions and wars, in my opinion.
Good point.
God is probably not what I think he is, I admit. This is why I started to question that he is the ultimate creator. Because I used to think that he is :)
The reason for God never does anything meaningless is a result from accepting that God is the ultimate good and that he has infinite resources (or he is the infinite resource).
Even if you take the story of Noah and the Deluge, you find that God wasted all those lives which were killed in the flood. But if God has infinite resources then this is only a waste from our point of view. Or let's take a scientific fact. There are turtle species which have more overlapped shells. The ones beneath the surface are rudiments and the turtle actually uses only the one on the surface for protection. This multiple shell thing is the result of the changing of life territory. These species were once living in the ocean, then on the land, then in the ocean again, and every time they changed their territory, their physiological structure has changed. But instead of using the old, degenerated shell, nature developed a new shell every time (see the work of the biologist Konrad Lorenz for more detail).
If someone would do such things, we'd say that one is wasting. But in the view of God, according to an infinite resource, this is not a waste. It doesn't matter for God (either on a religious or a scientific level) if he creates dozens of shells or just one; or if he creates the universe once or 27 times.
So we can say that for God everything is meaningless because he always has every resource to supply, and so he can't really experience the value of things, which value would give the meaning to it.
Or we can say that for God everything is meaningful because he always has every resources to supply, and so he only does things with pure consciousness, and because of this, his deeds always have a meaning.
Which of these fits better to your thoughts?
I think that if God exists then he does things consciously. And I think this because of two reasons:
1. I can't think of anything else what is a part of us now and could possibly exist without a physical body then something what I call our consciousness.
2. According to human behavior, consciousness is the opposite of addiction. Whatever we want to do meaningfully, we have to do consciously, and whenever we are not aware of our consciousness, we start to do things according to our addictions.
Addiction is something what you can't stop - and I think God has more power than to be addicted to anything.
Conclusion: God is conscious and not addicted, and so everything what he does has a meaning (even if we don't understand that meaning and we'd say it's a waste).
So with regard to your theory, did God create everything; let's turn it around, if it wasn't Him, then who could create everything? This lead to another question, who can create life? Who has the power to do? Humans are seen to be crown of creation - an none of us has the means to do it. Not even science - they have tried and failed miserably. Another thing; we are created in the image of God, meaning - not literally, but spiritually. He has "powered" the physical body with a spiritual body. In fact He lives within us. Each being is perfect, in its own. God did not create a "not perfect" world, He actually did create a perfect world. And yes, we do not know what cause the creation of the universe as it is, but then should we know? Do we require to know? And if we do, will that solve the challenge - why are we on earth? I don't think so.
It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men.” ~ Carl Sagan
Hello. My name is God, and I am an atheist. I don’t believe in gods because there are no gods who created me and there’s no one else here to compare myself to. I just have always existed. I didn’t evolve from anything. I am now just as I always have been, and will always be that it in the future. Messes with your head, doesn’t it? Think of how I feel!
But, what if there is a god who created me? I don’t see any other gods here except me, so why should I believe in another god? How about faith? Can faith establish that there is another god? No way! That’s just being silly. Even if I do have a creator, who created that god? No, that’s a faulty line of reasoning. I am the one and only. There is no other god but me. Right? Before I could know of another god, there must first be hard evidence and genuine scientific proof. That’s not going to happen, because I am God, I’d know of such things.
Okay, just me then. Now that I’ve got that question solved, what am I going to do now? There’s a lot of black empty space out here and I’m getting really bored! I gotta do something. Maybe I should create a “Big Boom” or a “Big Bam” or some kind of huge explosion and see what happens.
[A gigantic, mind-numbing, multiverse-shaking explosion ensues...]
…Okay, so I guess that was more of a “Big Bang”. Not bad, not bad at all. I’m an instant artist! Look at these beautiful stars, planets, and galaxies.
I’m impressed. I’m the greatest thing in this whole universe. But then, I’m the only one here, so I’m greatest by default. I suppose I could create other gods, and challenge them so that I can see for myself if I am indeed the greatest. On second thought, that may be a bad idea. What if they beat me? Or form evil alliances against me and revolt? That’ll be embarrassing. And what if they ask me who created me? Since I am the one who created them, they might think there must be some other god who created me. They’ll stop worshipping me, and look for other gods. Not acceptable. Moreover, they’re not gonna believe me if I said I just came into being out of nothing. Still, I could force them to believe whatever I want them to believe. Or I could punish the non-believers. I’ll have to give this some thought.
[Some time later...]
I’m bored. I’ve created everything I wanted to create. Am I going to be the only one admiring my own work? That would be lame. …I know! What if, instead of creating new gods, I create some tiny little creatures on one or more of these planets? They won’t be as powerful as a god, so they won’t be a threat to me. I’ll design them unable to see me, but they can see all my genius works. They can admire my work and praise me for it. It’ll be fun seeing them trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I can see it now: some will claim that they know me and have spoken to me or I have spoken to them, and they’ll use my name to start a religion. Soon, there will be a whole bunch of them and they’ll be killing each other to prove which Me is the one and only “true” Me. And I’ll never speak to any one of them. Anything they think is my voice will be misinterpretation or self-delusion.
This will be good entertainment. Should keep my boredom away. I get to be movie director. Producer too. And the whole special effects production crew. To paraphrase someone I’m about to create, “it’s good to be the god!”
Okay, got a little sidetracked there. Back to the plan. Those “religion” businessmen will use really effective marketing strategies in order to control others, making people behave with a predetermined right and wrong. All in my name, of course. That’ll cause problems, but those are their problems, not mine. I just want an audience.
Now, what will my creatures look like? I can’t make them all look exactly like me. They’ll need some variation on a common theme. Shall I create them all supernaturally with a finger snap? Or shall I use evolution by natural selection? No, that one will take far too long. I don’t want to wait. I need worshipers now. Chop chop! I want love. I want fear. I want worship. And I’ll get it. Or I’ll throw any rebels into a burning lake of fish. No, not fish. There’s not enough intimidation there. Fire, I’ll use a burning lake of fire. Hell, what a beautiful plan!
My creatures should never know about this stage of my confusion. I am God! I am perfect! I get everything right the first time! That’s all they need to know… And no matter what I details I let slip, I’m sure someone will create a better version of this story anyway. Or versions. Just like the religion business, there’ll be a whole bunch of variations on my story, all trying to compete with each other, so I don’t have to worry about my reputation.
Okay, enough thinking and talking to myself. Let’s do this.
[A loud, sustained whooshing sound is heard...]
…and done. I’ve got a bunch of weird creatures, including those based vaguely in my image: humans. There’s one boy and one girl. I’ll need to make more. Or they could save me the effort, and do something to each other to multiply. They can self-procreate without me. All I need to do is to create the first species of everything and give them all the ability to self-replicate.
[Loud, sustained squelching noises are heard...]
I think I’ve had enough of this. I thought I wouldn’t be bored, but I am. Things are not working out the way I really wanted. I want to delete it all and reformat everything. I’m lonely, fed up and now bored. I can’t kill myself. …or can I? If I were to kill myself, would any of my followers notice the difference?
Okay, whether or not I decide to commit Divine Suicide, let me give a deathbed confession: let me tell you how I came into being. How I was created. Are you ready for this?
It’s you.
Yes, you heard me. You. You are my God, since you created me. Well, that’s not literally true. It wasn’t all you, but your kind. People like you, living long, long ago - those people created me. Though my original stories were nothing more than explanations of the world before science and sociology, these magic tricks and uneducated thoughts exist today.
Don’t be mad. Don’t be depressed. I will still exist for as long as you want me too. Oh, by the way, the devil, angels, ghosts and anything Sylvia Browne says are also completely made up. I’m really, really sorry. But I can’t take all the blame. If you paid more attention in class during science, psychology and a few other related subjects, you probably wouldn’t be such an emotional wreck right now, and you’d be able to handle this with no problem.
And there you go. Being God, I already know that some of you will begin to think about what I’ve said here and free yourselves from the slave chains of religion, the supernatural and superstitious beliefs. And some will still want to believe I exist and my old made-up stories are legit. But I’m telling you this now because I think the time is right. There’s too much damage done already by this unethical business practice of religion. You don’t need those ignorant and outdated stories designed to control and manipulate. It’s time for you to free yourself and live your life to the fullest. Unless you’re some psycho, you can probably do that without causing harm to others. For those who still insist that I am real, well go ahead if it really makes you happy. But don’t think for a second that others are simply going to keep quiet.
“At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols.” ~ Aldous Huxley
“To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy.” ~ David Brooks
Science, Reason & Rationality
It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men.” ~ Carl Sagan
Hello. My name is God, and I am an atheist. I don’t believe in gods because there are no gods who created me and there’s no one else here to compare myself to. I just have always existed. I didn’t evolve from anything. I am now just as I always have been, and will always be that it in the future. Messes with your head, doesn’t it? Think of how I feel!
But, what if there is a god who created me? I don’t see any other gods here except me, so why should I believe in another god? How about faith? Can faith establish that there is another god? No way! That’s just being silly. Even if I do have a creator, who created that god? No, that’s a faulty line of reasoning. I am the one and only. There is no other god but me. Right? Before I could know of another god, there must first be hard evidence and genuine scientific proof. That’s not going to happen, because I am God, I’d know of such things.
Okay, just me then. Now that I’ve got that question solved, what am I going to do now? There’s a lot of black empty space out here and I’m getting really bored! I gotta do something. Maybe I should create a “Big Boom” or a “Big Bam” or some kind of huge explosion and see what happens.
[A gigantic, mind-numbing, multiverse-shaking explosion ensues...]
…Okay, so I guess that was more of a “Big Bang”. Not bad, not bad at all. I’m an instant artist! Look at these beautiful stars, planets, and galaxies.
I’m impressed. I’m the greatest thing in this whole universe. But then, I’m the only one here, so I’m greatest by default. I suppose I could create other gods, and challenge them so that I can see for myself if I am indeed the greatest. On second thought, that may be a bad idea. What if they beat me? Or form evil alliances against me and revolt? That’ll be embarrassing. And what if they ask me who created me? Since I am the one who created them, they might think there must be some other god who created me. They’ll stop worshipping me, and look for other gods. Not acceptable. Moreover, they’re not gonna believe me if I said I just came into being out of nothing. Still, I could force them to believe whatever I want them to believe. Or I could punish the non-believers. I’ll have to give this some thought.
[Some time later...]
I’m bored. I’ve created everything I wanted to create. Am I going to be the only one admiring my own work? That would be lame. …I know! What if, instead of creating new gods, I create some tiny little creatures on one or more of these planets? They won’t be as powerful as a god, so they won’t be a threat to me. I’ll design them unable to see me, but they can see all my genius works. They can admire my work and praise me for it. It’ll be fun seeing them trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I can see it now: some will claim that they know me and have spoken to me or I have spoken to them, and they’ll use my name to start a religion. Soon, there will be a whole bunch of them and they’ll be killing each other to prove which Me is the one and only “true” Me. And I’ll never speak to any one of them. Anything they think is my voice will be misinterpretation or self-delusion.
This will be good entertainment. Should keep my boredom away. I get to be movie director. Producer too. And the whole special effects production crew. To paraphrase someone I’m about to create, “it’s good to be the god!”
Okay, got a little sidetracked there. Back to the plan. Those “religion” businessmen will use really effective marketing strategies in order to control others, making people behave with a predetermined right and wrong. All in my name, of course. That’ll cause problems, but those are their problems, not mine. I just want an audience.
Now, what will my creatures look like? I can’t make them all look exactly like me. They’ll need some variation on a common theme. Shall I create them all supernaturally with a finger snap? Or shall I use evolution by natural selection? No, that one will take far too long. I don’t want to wait. I need worshipers now. Chop chop! I want love. I want fear. I want worship. And I’ll get it. Or I’ll throw any rebels into a burning lake of fish. No, not fish. There’s not enough intimidation there. Fire, I’ll use a burning lake of fire. Hell, what a beautiful plan!
My creatures should never know about this stage of my confusion. I am God! I am perfect! I get everything right the first time! That’s all they need to know… And no matter what I details I let slip, I’m sure someone will create a better version of this story anyway. Or versions. Just like the religion business, there’ll be a whole bunch of variations on my story, all trying to compete with each other, so I don’t have to worry about my reputation.
Okay, enough thinking and talking to myself. Let’s do this.
[A loud, sustained whooshing sound is heard...]
…and done. I’ve got a bunch of weird creatures, including those based vaguely in my image: humans. There’s one boy and one girl. I’ll need to make more. Or they could save me the effort, and do something to each other to multiply. They can self-procreate without me. All I need to do is to create the first species of everything and give them all the ability to self-replicate.
[Loud, sustained squelching noises are heard...]
I think I’ve had enough of this. I thought I wouldn’t be bored, but I am. Things are not working out the way I really wanted. I want to delete it all and reformat everything. I’m lonely, fed up and now bored. I can’t kill myself. …or can I? If I were to kill myself, would any of my followers notice the difference?
Okay, whether or not I decide to commit Divine Suicide, let me give a deathbed confession: let me tell you how I came into being. How I was created. Are you ready for this?
It’s you.
Yes, you heard me. You. You are my God, since you created me. Well, that’s not literally true. It wasn’t all you, but your kind. People like you, living long, long ago - those people created me. Though my original stories were nothing more than explanations of the world before science and sociology, these magic tricks and uneducated thoughts exist today.
Don’t be mad. Don’t be depressed. I will still exist for as long as you want me too. Oh, by the way, the devil, angels, ghosts and anything Sylvia Browne says are also completely made up. I’m really, really sorry. But I can’t take all the blame. If you paid more attention in class during science, psychology and a few other related subjects, you probably wouldn’t be such an emotional wreck right now, and you’d be able to handle this with no problem.
And there you go. Being God, I already know that some of you will begin to think about what I’ve said here and free yourselves from the slave chains of religion, the supernatural and superstitious beliefs. And some will still want to believe I exist and my old made-up stories are legit. But I’m telling you this now because I think the time is right. There’s too much damage done already by this unethical business practice of religion. You don’t need those ignorant and outdated stories designed to control and manipulate. It’s time for you to free yourself and live your life to the fullest. Unless you’re some psycho, you can probably do that without causing harm to others. For those who still insist that I am real, well go ahead if it really makes you happy. But don’t think for a second that others are simply going to keep quiet.
“At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols.” ~ Aldous Huxley
“To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy.” ~ David Brooks
Science, Reason & Rationality
Hello. My name is God, and I am an atheist. I don’t believe in gods because there are no gods who created me and there’s no one else here to compare myself to. I just have always existed. I didn’t evolve from anything. I am now just as I always have been, and will always be that it in the future. Messes with your head, doesn’t it? Think of how I feel!
But, what if there is a god who created me? I don’t see any other gods here except me, so why should I believe in another god? How about faith? Can faith establish that there is another god? No way! That’s just being silly. Even if I do have a creator, who created that god? No, that’s a faulty line of reasoning. I am the one and only. There is no other god but me. Right? Before I could know of another god, there must first be hard evidence and genuine scientific proof. That’s not going to happen, because I am God, I’d know of such things.
Okay, just me then. Now that I’ve got that question solved, what am I going to do now? There’s a lot of black empty space out here and I’m getting really bored! I gotta do something. Maybe I should create a “Big Boom” or a “Big Bam” or some kind of huge explosion and see what happens.
[A gigantic, mind-numbing, multiverse-shaking explosion ensues...]
…Okay, so I guess that was more of a “Big Bang”. Not bad, not bad at all. I’m an instant artist! Look at these beautiful stars, planets, and galaxies.
I’m impressed. I’m the greatest thing in this whole universe. But then, I’m the only one here, so I’m greatest by default. I suppose I could create other gods, and challenge them so that I can see for myself if I am indeed the greatest. On second thought, that may be a bad idea. What if they beat me? Or form evil alliances against me and revolt? That’ll be embarrassing. And what if they ask me who created me? Since I am the one who created them, they might think there must be some other god who created me. They’ll stop worshipping me, and look for other gods. Not acceptable. Moreover, they’re not gonna believe me if I said I just came into being out of nothing. Still, I could force them to believe whatever I want them to believe. Or I could punish the non-believers. I’ll have to give this some thought.
[Some time later...]
I’m bored. I’ve created everything I wanted to create. Am I going to be the only one admiring my own work? That would be lame. …I know! What if, instead of creating new gods, I create some tiny little creatures on one or more of these planets? They won’t be as powerful as a god, so they won’t be a threat to me. I’ll design them unable to see me, but they can see all my genius works. They can admire my work and praise me for it. It’ll be fun seeing them trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I can see it now: some will claim that they know me and have spoken to me or I have spoken to them, and they’ll use my name to start a religion. Soon, there will be a whole bunch of them and they’ll be killing each other to prove which Me is the one and only “true” Me. And I’ll never speak to any one of them. Anything they think is my voice will be misinterpretation or self-delusion.
This will be good entertainment. Should keep my boredom away. I get to be movie director. Producer too. And the whole special effects production crew. To paraphrase someone I’m about to create, “it’s good to be the god!”
Okay, got a little sidetracked there. Back to the plan. Those “religion” businessmen will use really effective marketing strategies in order to control others, making people behave with a predetermined right and wrong. All in my name, of course. That’ll cause problems, but those are their problems, not mine. I just want an audience.
Now, what will my creatures look like? I can’t make them all look exactly like me. They’ll need some variation on a common theme. Shall I create them all supernaturally with a finger snap? Or shall I use evolution by natural selection? No, that one will take far too long. I don’t want to wait. I need worshipers now. Chop chop! I want love. I want fear. I want worship. And I’ll get it. Or I’ll throw any rebels into a burning lake of fish. No, not fish. There’s not enough intimidation there. Fire, I’ll use a burning lake of fire. Hell, what a beautiful plan!
My creatures should never know about this stage of my confusion. I am God! I am perfect! I get everything right the first time! That’s all they need to know… And no matter what I details I let slip, I’m sure someone will create a better version of this story anyway. Or versions. Just like the religion business, there’ll be a whole bunch of variations on my story, all trying to compete with each other, so I don’t have to worry about my reputation.
Okay, enough thinking and talking to myself. Let’s do this.
[A loud, sustained whooshing sound is heard...]
…and done. I’ve got a bunch of weird creatures, including those based vaguely in my image: humans. There’s one boy and one girl. I’ll need to make more. Or they could save me the effort, and do something to each other to multiply. They can self-procreate without me. All I need to do is to create the first species of everything and give them all the ability to self-replicate.
[Loud, sustained squelching noises are heard...]
I think I’ve had enough of this. I thought I wouldn’t be bored, but I am. Things are not working out the way I really wanted. I want to delete it all and reformat everything. I’m lonely, fed up and now bored. I can’t kill myself. …or can I? If I were to kill myself, would any of my followers notice the difference?
Okay, whether or not I decide to commit Divine Suicide, let me give a deathbed confession: let me tell you how I came into being. How I was created. Are you ready for this?
It’s you.
Yes, you heard me. You. You are my God, since you created me. Well, that’s not literally true. It wasn’t all you, but your kind. People like you, living long, long ago - those people created me. Though my original stories were nothing more than explanations of the world before science and sociology, these magic tricks and uneducated thoughts exist today.
Don’t be mad. Don’t be depressed. I will still exist for as long as you want me too. Oh, by the way, the devil, angels, ghosts and anything Sylvia Browne says are also completely made up. I’m really, really sorry. But I can’t take all the blame. If you paid more attention in class during science, psychology and a few other related subjects, you probably wouldn’t be such an emotional wreck right now, and you’d be able to handle this with no problem.
And there you go. Being God, I already know that some of you will begin to think about what I’ve said here and free yourselves from the slave chains of religion, the supernatural and superstitious beliefs. And some will still want to believe I exist and my old made-up stories are legit. But I’m telling you this now because I think the time is right. There’s too much damage done already by this unethical business practice of religion. You don’t need those ignorant and outdated stories designed to control and manipulate. It’s time for you to free yourself and live your life to the fullest. Unless you’re some psycho, you can probably do that without causing harm to others. For those who still insist that I am real, well go ahead if it really makes you happy. But don’t think for a second that others are simply going to keep quiet.
“At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols.” ~ Aldous Huxley
“To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy.” ~ David Brooks
Science, Reason & Rationality
This was a good story, thanks for sharing it and mentioning the source. I checked the site, it's really inspiring.
I like your comments.
But! :)
If the knowledge of the reason of creation doesn't show us why we are on Earth then nothing does. So, yes, I believe that this knowledge makes me go forward.
Do we require to know? - As humanity, maybe we don't. But I, personally, have a strong desire to know, I'd feel more secure if I'd know it. I know, I see people living way happier life than I do and they have no idea whatsoever to this question. So I'm not saying that the knowledge of the ultimate reason of existence is necessary to fulfill the meaning of life. It's just me who wants to know it because as I studied myself and the people around me I found that an ultimate knowledge is necessary for me, because this could give a strong basis for my thoughts, my feelings, my decissions and my whole life.
I see people who really do everything for success and then they die at the age of 40-50 because of serious health problems; or their family falls apart; or they still don't find anything satisfying. I see 'spiritual' people who have passed 30 or 40 and they spent their entire life with trying to be good disciples, good believers, good followers, good whatevers and they are not happy, they are sick and broke, but still they don't give up. Why not? And then I see broken men and women on the streets who are suffering for lack and poverty, they fight with each other for the last piece of bread, or mostly for alcohol and cigarette because they are addicted. And why do they continue? Why don't they just give up and get out of life? I mean, if someone is living like this for 20-30 years and has no perspective to get out then what the hell is keeping him wanting to be alive?
There are different levels of truth. Everyone has to find the level which makes him/her satisfied. Even as a child, I wasn't satisfied with whatever my parents and teachers taught me about the way of life. Somehow I felt that there is something way bigger what is NOT what the Bible says. And now I'm starting to see that things are just not what they seemed to be.
You ask, who created the world if not God? This isn't what I wanted to ask. I meant that maybe the universe has some kind of basic, yet undiscovered law which could be like "nothingness creates energy and energy creates consciousness". And if this is the case then maybe there is still a God, but maybe this God is just something what was still a created entity and creation is simply a natural process without a purpose. And if it is so, then maybe God has very strong power to disturb or shift our lives but he is not the ultimate answer to all questions.
So, what we know is that there is a principle about energy which is the same principle as of God. We can say that energy itself contains life and consciousness, and this is where life is from and this is where the holly spirit, the soul, or our consciousness (higher self, whatever) is from. This might be true because we don't really know what life is and how it works, so maybe life is in energy...
If God is not the creator, just the first existing being, and his existence is still a cause and not an effect, then maybe there is no reason of existence. Maybe this is just by law and there is no higher meaning, purpose or whatsoever at all, it's just the behavior of nature, which might be accidental as well. We know that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. This could be enough time for accidents to raise into an organized universe filled with life and matter, but mostly still left empty...
But if God created this whole thing then he must have had something "in mind" what was the reason of the creation. Why did God create? He sure had a reason for it because as you can see (if you accept the existence of God) God never does anything meaningless. So for him, creation has a meaning, it has to lead to something. Why would God create something what leads to something if he already knows where all the things will lead? Why would he?
Maybe the world is perfect, you're right. It might be perfect, it might be that I simply know too few to understand the ultimate meaning of perfection, and because of this, I believe that the world is imperfect, although it's not. This is also a possibility. But even if the world is perfect, why would God need it? Why would he want it to be?
But! :)
If the knowledge of the reason of creation doesn't show us why we are on Earth then nothing does. So, yes, I believe that this knowledge makes me go forward.
Do we require to know? - As humanity, maybe we don't. But I, personally, have a strong desire to know, I'd feel more secure if I'd know it. I know, I see people living way happier life than I do and they have no idea whatsoever to this question. So I'm not saying that the knowledge of the ultimate reason of existence is necessary to fulfill the meaning of life. It's just me who wants to know it because as I studied myself and the people around me I found that an ultimate knowledge is necessary for me, because this could give a strong basis for my thoughts, my feelings, my decissions and my whole life.
I see people who really do everything for success and then they die at the age of 40-50 because of serious health problems; or their family falls apart; or they still don't find anything satisfying. I see 'spiritual' people who have passed 30 or 40 and they spent their entire life with trying to be good disciples, good believers, good followers, good whatevers and they are not happy, they are sick and broke, but still they don't give up. Why not? And then I see broken men and women on the streets who are suffering for lack and poverty, they fight with each other for the last piece of bread, or mostly for alcohol and cigarette because they are addicted. And why do they continue? Why don't they just give up and get out of life? I mean, if someone is living like this for 20-30 years and has no perspective to get out then what the hell is keeping him wanting to be alive?
There are different levels of truth. Everyone has to find the level which makes him/her satisfied. Even as a child, I wasn't satisfied with whatever my parents and teachers taught me about the way of life. Somehow I felt that there is something way bigger what is NOT what the Bible says. And now I'm starting to see that things are just not what they seemed to be.
You ask, who created the world if not God? This isn't what I wanted to ask. I meant that maybe the universe has some kind of basic, yet undiscovered law which could be like "nothingness creates energy and energy creates consciousness". And if this is the case then maybe there is still a God, but maybe this God is just something what was still a created entity and creation is simply a natural process without a purpose. And if it is so, then maybe God has very strong power to disturb or shift our lives but he is not the ultimate answer to all questions.
So, what we know is that there is a principle about energy which is the same principle as of God. We can say that energy itself contains life and consciousness, and this is where life is from and this is where the holly spirit, the soul, or our consciousness (higher self, whatever) is from. This might be true because we don't really know what life is and how it works, so maybe life is in energy...
If God is not the creator, just the first existing being, and his existence is still a cause and not an effect, then maybe there is no reason of existence. Maybe this is just by law and there is no higher meaning, purpose or whatsoever at all, it's just the behavior of nature, which might be accidental as well. We know that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. This could be enough time for accidents to raise into an organized universe filled with life and matter, but mostly still left empty...
But if God created this whole thing then he must have had something "in mind" what was the reason of the creation. Why did God create? He sure had a reason for it because as you can see (if you accept the existence of God) God never does anything meaningless. So for him, creation has a meaning, it has to lead to something. Why would God create something what leads to something if he already knows where all the things will lead? Why would he?
Maybe the world is perfect, you're right. It might be perfect, it might be that I simply know too few to understand the ultimate meaning of perfection, and because of this, I believe that the world is imperfect, although it's not. This is also a possibility. But even if the world is perfect, why would God need it? Why would he want it to be?
So, we came out a turtle???
"God created human after his own image." This is a religious preconception. But the other, "God is the creator of the world" or even that "God exists", these too are religious preconceptions without any explanation or proof for them. What I'm trying to discuss in this issue is the basics of this concept and I'd try to explain further existence-questions from that.
Anyway, according to my formerly mentioned theories, it seems to me that the power what we call God and the source of our lifeforce are the same thing; even more the consciousness of God and the consciousness of our soul (if there is any) are the same thing. This can be accepted as God created us in his own image. The question is that was God really the creator of us, or was there another way in which God and we were created?
The answer to this can show if we have some divine purpose to fulfill in our life or not. If the creation was "accidental" and not meaningful then God might be more powerful than us but he might have no ultimate rules given to our lives. But if he was the creator then he surely had something in mind why he created us - or anything. But I can't find anything what would make God a creator.
Anyway, according to my formerly mentioned theories, it seems to me that the power what we call God and the source of our lifeforce are the same thing; even more the consciousness of God and the consciousness of our soul (if there is any) are the same thing. This can be accepted as God created us in his own image. The question is that was God really the creator of us, or was there another way in which God and we were created?
The answer to this can show if we have some divine purpose to fulfill in our life or not. If the creation was "accidental" and not meaningful then God might be more powerful than us but he might have no ultimate rules given to our lives. But if he was the creator then he surely had something in mind why he created us - or anything. But I can't find anything what would make God a creator.
Note, we are created in Gods image, not physical but spiritual.
We do not look like Him, but we carry His spirit in us. Whether we are believers or non-believers, does not matter. The bottom line is, He exists, and gave us life.
We do not know where is God's beginning, but the question is: Should we, and if so, why? Will it make any difference? The fact is: we are on earth, and the bottom line is: why? To fulfill a purpose - each person has an individual purpose, and that is giving meaning to life. If a person does not know why, what, when, where, .... then....
My answer is: start within. Look inside yourself. What are you good at? What can you do? What is your strong points. Develop those attributes and do it to the best of your ability.
In any case, if you are a believer, believe like a child. Stop bickering.
It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men.” ~ Carl Sagan
Hello. My name is God, and I am an atheist. I don’t believe in gods because there are no gods who created me and there’s no one else here to compare myself to. I just have always existed. I didn’t evolve from anything. I am now just as I always have been, and will always be that it in the future. Messes with your head, doesn’t it? Think of how I feel!
But, what if there is a god who created me? I don’t see any other gods here except me, so why should I believe in another god? How about faith? Can faith establish that there is another god? No way! That’s just being silly. Even if I do have a creator, who created that god? No, that’s a faulty line of reasoning. I am the one and only. There is no other god but me. Right? Before I could know of another god, there must first be hard evidence and genuine scientific proof. That’s not going to happen, because I am God, I’d know of such things.
Okay, just me then. Now that I’ve got that question solved, what am I going to do now? There’s a lot of black empty space out here and I’m getting really bored! I gotta do something. Maybe I should create a “Big Boom” or a “Big Bam” or some kind of huge explosion and see what happens.
[A gigantic, mind-numbing, multiverse-shaking explosion ensues...]
…Okay, so I guess that was more of a “Big Bang”. Not bad, not bad at all. I’m an instant artist! Look at these beautiful stars, planets, and galaxies.
I’m impressed. I’m the greatest thing in this whole universe. But then, I’m the only one here, so I’m greatest by default. I suppose I could create other gods, and challenge them so that I can see for myself if I am indeed the greatest. On second thought, that may be a bad idea. What if they beat me? Or form evil alliances against me and revolt? That’ll be embarrassing. And what if they ask me who created me? Since I am the one who created them, they might think there must be some other god who created me. They’ll stop worshipping me, and look for other gods. Not acceptable. Moreover, they’re not gonna believe me if I said I just came into being out of nothing. Still, I could force them to believe whatever I want them to believe. Or I could punish the non-believers. I’ll have to give this some thought.
[Some time later...]
I’m bored. I’ve created everything I wanted to create. Am I going to be the only one admiring my own work? That would be lame. …I know! What if, instead of creating new gods, I create some tiny little creatures on one or more of these planets? They won’t be as powerful as a god, so they won’t be a threat to me. I’ll design them unable to see me, but they can see all my genius works. They can admire my work and praise me for it. It’ll be fun seeing them trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I can see it now: some will claim that they know me and have spoken to me or I have spoken to them, and they’ll use my name to start a religion. Soon, there will be a whole bunch of them and they’ll be killing each other to prove which Me is the one and only “true” Me. And I’ll never speak to any one of them. Anything they think is my voice will be misinterpretation or self-delusion.
This will be good entertainment. Should keep my boredom away. I get to be movie director. Producer too. And the whole special effects production crew. To paraphrase someone I’m about to create, “it’s good to be the god!”
Okay, got a little sidetracked there. Back to the plan. Those “religion” businessmen will use really effective marketing strategies in order to control others, making people behave with a predetermined right and wrong. All in my name, of course. That’ll cause problems, but those are their problems, not mine. I just want an audience.
Now, what will my creatures look like? I can’t make them all look exactly like me. They’ll need some variation on a common theme. Shall I create them all supernaturally with a finger snap? Or shall I use evolution by natural selection? No, that one will take far too long. I don’t want to wait. I need worshipers now. Chop chop! I want love. I want fear. I want worship. And I’ll get it. Or I’ll throw any rebels into a burning lake of fish. No, not fish. There’s not enough intimidation there. Fire, I’ll use a burning lake of fire. Hell, what a beautiful plan!
My creatures should never know about this stage of my confusion. I am God! I am perfect! I get everything right the first time! That’s all they need to know… And no matter what I details I let slip, I’m sure someone will create a better version of this story anyway. Or versions. Just like the religion business, there’ll be a whole bunch of variations on my story, all trying to compete with each other, so I don’t have to worry about my reputation.
Okay, enough thinking and talking to myself. Let’s do this.
[A loud, sustained whooshing sound is heard...]
…and done. I’ve got a bunch of weird creatures, including those based vaguely in my image: humans. There’s one boy and one girl. I’ll need to make more. Or they could save me the effort, and do something to each other to multiply. They can self-procreate without me. All I need to do is to create the first species of everything and give them all the ability to self-replicate.
[Loud, sustained squelching noises are heard...]
I think I’ve had enough of this. I thought I wouldn’t be bored, but I am. Things are not working out the way I really wanted. I want to delete it all and reformat everything. I’m lonely, fed up and now bored. I can’t kill myself. …or can I? If I were to kill myself, would any of my followers notice the difference?
Okay, whether or not I decide to commit Divine Suicide, let me give a deathbed confession: let me tell you how I came into being. How I was created. Are you ready for this?
It’s you.
Yes, you heard me. You. You are my God, since you created me. Well, that’s not literally true. It wasn’t all you, but your kind. People like you, living long, long ago - those people created me. Though my original stories were nothing more than explanations of the world before science and sociology, these magic tricks and uneducated thoughts exist today.
Don’t be mad. Don’t be depressed. I will still exist for as long as you want me too. Oh, by the way, the devil, angels, ghosts and anything Sylvia Browne says are also completely made up. I’m really, really sorry. But I can’t take all the blame. If you paid more attention in class during science, psychology and a few other related subjects, you probably wouldn’t be such an emotional wreck right now, and you’d be able to handle this with no problem.
And there you go. Being God, I already know that some of you will begin to think about what I’ve said here and free yourselves from the slave chains of religion, the supernatural and superstitious beliefs. And some will still want to believe I exist and my old made-up stories are legit. But I’m telling you this now because I think the time is right. There’s too much damage done already by this unethical business practice of religion. You don’t need those ignorant and outdated stories designed to control and manipulate. It’s time for you to free yourself and live your life to the fullest. Unless you’re some psycho, you can probably do that without causing harm to others. For those who still insist that I am real, well go ahead if it really makes you happy. But don’t think for a second that others are simply going to keep quiet.
“At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols.” ~ Aldous Huxley
“To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy.” ~ David Brooks
Science, Reason & Rationality
Hello. My name is God, and I am an atheist. I don’t believe in gods because there are no gods who created me and there’s no one else here to compare myself to. I just have always existed. I didn’t evolve from anything. I am now just as I always have been, and will always be that it in the future. Messes with your head, doesn’t it? Think of how I feel!
But, what if there is a god who created me? I don’t see any other gods here except me, so why should I believe in another god? How about faith? Can faith establish that there is another god? No way! That’s just being silly. Even if I do have a creator, who created that god? No, that’s a faulty line of reasoning. I am the one and only. There is no other god but me. Right? Before I could know of another god, there must first be hard evidence and genuine scientific proof. That’s not going to happen, because I am God, I’d know of such things.
Okay, just me then. Now that I’ve got that question solved, what am I going to do now? There’s a lot of black empty space out here and I’m getting really bored! I gotta do something. Maybe I should create a “Big Boom” or a “Big Bam” or some kind of huge explosion and see what happens.
[A gigantic, mind-numbing, multiverse-shaking explosion ensues...]
…Okay, so I guess that was more of a “Big Bang”. Not bad, not bad at all. I’m an instant artist! Look at these beautiful stars, planets, and galaxies.
I’m impressed. I’m the greatest thing in this whole universe. But then, I’m the only one here, so I’m greatest by default. I suppose I could create other gods, and challenge them so that I can see for myself if I am indeed the greatest. On second thought, that may be a bad idea. What if they beat me? Or form evil alliances against me and revolt? That’ll be embarrassing. And what if they ask me who created me? Since I am the one who created them, they might think there must be some other god who created me. They’ll stop worshipping me, and look for other gods. Not acceptable. Moreover, they’re not gonna believe me if I said I just came into being out of nothing. Still, I could force them to believe whatever I want them to believe. Or I could punish the non-believers. I’ll have to give this some thought.
[Some time later...]
I’m bored. I’ve created everything I wanted to create. Am I going to be the only one admiring my own work? That would be lame. …I know! What if, instead of creating new gods, I create some tiny little creatures on one or more of these planets? They won’t be as powerful as a god, so they won’t be a threat to me. I’ll design them unable to see me, but they can see all my genius works. They can admire my work and praise me for it. It’ll be fun seeing them trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I can see it now: some will claim that they know me and have spoken to me or I have spoken to them, and they’ll use my name to start a religion. Soon, there will be a whole bunch of them and they’ll be killing each other to prove which Me is the one and only “true” Me. And I’ll never speak to any one of them. Anything they think is my voice will be misinterpretation or self-delusion.
This will be good entertainment. Should keep my boredom away. I get to be movie director. Producer too. And the whole special effects production crew. To paraphrase someone I’m about to create, “it’s good to be the god!”
Okay, got a little sidetracked there. Back to the plan. Those “religion” businessmen will use really effective marketing strategies in order to control others, making people behave with a predetermined right and wrong. All in my name, of course. That’ll cause problems, but those are their problems, not mine. I just want an audience.
Now, what will my creatures look like? I can’t make them all look exactly like me. They’ll need some variation on a common theme. Shall I create them all supernaturally with a finger snap? Or shall I use evolution by natural selection? No, that one will take far too long. I don’t want to wait. I need worshipers now. Chop chop! I want love. I want fear. I want worship. And I’ll get it. Or I’ll throw any rebels into a burning lake of fish. No, not fish. There’s not enough intimidation there. Fire, I’ll use a burning lake of fire. Hell, what a beautiful plan!
My creatures should never know about this stage of my confusion. I am God! I am perfect! I get everything right the first time! That’s all they need to know… And no matter what I details I let slip, I’m sure someone will create a better version of this story anyway. Or versions. Just like the religion business, there’ll be a whole bunch of variations on my story, all trying to compete with each other, so I don’t have to worry about my reputation.
Okay, enough thinking and talking to myself. Let’s do this.
[A loud, sustained whooshing sound is heard...]
…and done. I’ve got a bunch of weird creatures, including those based vaguely in my image: humans. There’s one boy and one girl. I’ll need to make more. Or they could save me the effort, and do something to each other to multiply. They can self-procreate without me. All I need to do is to create the first species of everything and give them all the ability to self-replicate.
[Loud, sustained squelching noises are heard...]
I think I’ve had enough of this. I thought I wouldn’t be bored, but I am. Things are not working out the way I really wanted. I want to delete it all and reformat everything. I’m lonely, fed up and now bored. I can’t kill myself. …or can I? If I were to kill myself, would any of my followers notice the difference?
Okay, whether or not I decide to commit Divine Suicide, let me give a deathbed confession: let me tell you how I came into being. How I was created. Are you ready for this?
It’s you.
Yes, you heard me. You. You are my God, since you created me. Well, that’s not literally true. It wasn’t all you, but your kind. People like you, living long, long ago - those people created me. Though my original stories were nothing more than explanations of the world before science and sociology, these magic tricks and uneducated thoughts exist today.
Don’t be mad. Don’t be depressed. I will still exist for as long as you want me too. Oh, by the way, the devil, angels, ghosts and anything Sylvia Browne says are also completely made up. I’m really, really sorry. But I can’t take all the blame. If you paid more attention in class during science, psychology and a few other related subjects, you probably wouldn’t be such an emotional wreck right now, and you’d be able to handle this with no problem.
And there you go. Being God, I already know that some of you will begin to think about what I’ve said here and free yourselves from the slave chains of religion, the supernatural and superstitious beliefs. And some will still want to believe I exist and my old made-up stories are legit. But I’m telling you this now because I think the time is right. There’s too much damage done already by this unethical business practice of religion. You don’t need those ignorant and outdated stories designed to control and manipulate. It’s time for you to free yourself and live your life to the fullest. Unless you’re some psycho, you can probably do that without causing harm to others. For those who still insist that I am real, well go ahead if it really makes you happy. But don’t think for a second that others are simply going to keep quiet.
“At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols.” ~ Aldous Huxley
“To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy.” ~ David Brooks
Science, Reason & Rationality
Tim, for a atheist, you are not very convincing.
The moment you said "if there is a God..." and spelled with a capital, you gave yourself away. You are actually seeking to be convinced otherwise - that God really exists.
Well I know He does, and many other do so too! The matter of the fact is, you only need to look around you to see the evidence of His existence. But again, most atheist, will come up with millions of excuses why the evidence is not evidence. And I am not in a mood for arguing.
But I can refer you to a website where you can talk to some one who were a atheist as well, and made a turn around. http://www.everystudent.com/za/index.html
Let's get back to the source of existence. We say there was the ultimate creator, we call him God. Before creation there was nothing but God. In case we accept that God is perfect, we have to admit that everything was perfect before the creation - because all that has been was the perfect God and nothing else. Now, why would God create a world? He has everything, he is totally happy, he doesn't have unfilled needs, there is absoultely nothing what is missing for him. If there would be anything missing for God before the creation then he wouldn't be perfect. He simply doesn't have a motive to create.
But we beleive that God did create a world. He created billions and billions of things and he created life, countless species and living beings all over the world. This lowered his potential. He cannot be perfect anymore because the world he created is imperfect. He lowered his own potential and now he isn't the same anymore. The world which was once perfect with only the one God in it is now imperfect because of all the things God created.
When I try to think of myself as a god, as someone who is the only existing being and who is totally happy in itself (because being happy means actually that we have no experiecen of suffer) then I have no idea why I would create anything. I wouldn't.
Either we think of God as a holly spirit or as conscious energy, we still have no answer to this question. I'd really like to read the opinion of the visitors of this site about this.
My conclusion is that God is either not perfect or he is not the creator of the world. But this is not an answer to this question.